Commander #274 Old Glory

[Stephan]

Hello dear Association members,

My name is Stephan, and I just became the very happy and excited owner of "Encore", a Commander from 1964 (or 1966), hull #274. I'll be visiting here a lot to learn as much as I can about this boat. This is my very first sail boat, and I'm a little scared about learning how to fix things, operate the ship and become a good sailor. I have little technical information about her yet, but this will hopefully change. I'll try to find a mooring in Monroe Harbor, Chicago, for her.

I greet you all!

Stephan

[eric (deceased)]

just remember there are no small mistakes on a big boat.have fun with your new boat-do not ever let anyone tell you-"YOU CAN'T"---read -study -and learn as much as you can.you can never loose experience ;)

[Robert Lemasters]

Thats exactly how I felt about my Commander.Sailing is such an imposing sport/recreation/life... I feel a little awkward sometimes around everyone who seem to have so much sailing experience and know how. But everyone in this Association is only too glad to help out. Take your time, don't rush, read, ask questions, it will all work out. For me the sailing part is now what its about, doing something for the first time, stepping out of my comfort zone, learning...the money...the money...the money (wife's words)...but it's fun, exciting and spills over into other things and is well worth it. Where do you sail out of? Welcome aboard. :o

[Stephan]

Great forum!
Lots of photos, information, interesting and knowledgable posts, I couldn't have come to a better place to find out about my Commander.
The boat is currently on dry land in Winthop Harbor, north of Chicago.
Now if anybody has a mooring can for me in Chicago my bliss is complete.

Greetings, Stephan

[Stephan]

I was happy to have a colleague from work showing me some tricks on my boat today - he's an old salt and I'm utterly new. The weather was perfect - 10-15 knots of wind, nice sunshine, etc. The boat behaved nice. My friend figured out a good way for riggging the working jib - between the first and the second shroud. I didn't use the winches at all - I guess they'll only be useful for the Genoa... Even though my main is stone old (and has a broken batten) we made good headway on the lake off Chicago.
One thing I noticed was that the motor well got pretty swamped while the outboarder was in it. when I got the outboarder lifted and put the plug in things got better. But if I go out by myself it's pretty hard to get the motor in and out, so I see two ways:
1. Leave the motor in the well and maybe shift my butt further to the front of the boat to get the stern up.
2. Build something to lift the motor up more easily. I remember seeing the davit in the Association Manual, but that thing would seem to be in the way a lot. Why not attach a block to the backstay and lift the motor from that? Backstay too weak for that?

I'm a happy new boater!

[Robert Lemasters]

Yeh, sailing don't you just love it. My Commander also used to take on lots of water through the engine well. I now have two deep cycle batteries that I have moved forward and center (amidships) rather then the single battery that was in a box under the Starboard cockpit seat. I also replaced my old interior cusions with new thicker cusions with thicker foam and covers(nolgahide-damn spelling) that are somewhat heavier then the old cusions. My ol' boat never had a watertank and of course the cabin is smaller than the Ariel (less weight). Maybe the hull and weight distribution was for the Ariel with more weight foreward then the Commander, I don't know. But my ol'boat now dosn't take on much water through the engine well with the six hp Nissan four stroke that's weighs fifty or so lbs.I also have installed a watertight deck hatch on the cockpit deck under which I store just about everything which puts more weight foreward and center.I also am new to sailing and I still need someone to sail with(safer with all of the large boat traffic here in Portsmouth VA., easier and more fun), it's a job sailing this boat singlehanded at my age, I will be rigging my Commander for single handling this winter with a furler and some other things.Good sailing.

[Bill]

One thing I noticed was that the motor well got pretty swamped while the outboarder was in it.

Leaving the ob in the well while sailing means picking up a lot of water regardless of weight distribution. If possible, it's best to remove the engine and insert the plug. This will become more important as the wind speed climbs over the 15 to 18 knot range and the rail gets closer to the water going to weather. Racers place the engine on the sole between the two cabins for better weight distribution, but it's easier just to store the ob in the lazarette.

The manual has a plan for a skirt arrangement to surround the engine and prevent water intrusion. The manual also has instructions for installing the Gahaurer lifting davit to use to R&R the engine following Gene Roberts' initial installation. A search of the board will turn up at least one other such installation as well as further discussion of the water intrusion issue.

It also might be a good idea to search the board on jib track placement.

The need to use winches with the working jib will become obvious as soon as the wind speed picks up, or if you want to adjust the trim of the jib after tacking.

If this is your first real displacement keelboat sailing experience, paying a pro to sail with you for a couple of hours could be money well spent.

[Robert Lemasters]

I havn't had a chance to use my engine well plug while sailing because of the heavy large boat traffic here. Tugs with barges and containership tows along with other large and often fast motor yachts don't give a rats behind about some slow ol'sailboat.To be safe it's best for me to have the motor ready to go.I've been in some spots where the motor kept me out of serious trouble.Have you noticed a speed and handling differance with the motor out and the plug in? The bay is more than an hour or so away where there is plenty of sea room and I can't wait to sail with the motor up.

[Bill]

Have you noticed a speed and handling differance with the motor out and the plug in?

Definate yes, and it's quite obvious in one design racing. The effect of leaving the engine in the well is like drgging a big anchor! :eek: Not to mention that it looks really ugly. :o Attaching the skirt shown in the manual will keep things dry, but you will still be hauling that ugly anchor around . . .

[Stephan]

The problem with taking the OB out is that it's a ***** to lift, and lowering it back is hardly easier. The davit in the manual sure looks sturdy, but I'd rather not have that whole assembly in the cockpit. What's your opinion about attaching a block to the backstay and lifting the motor up on that? My Honda is about 60 lbs, and given the angle of the backstay and adding dynamic forces, I'd expect the extra force on the backstay wouldn't exceed 200 or 300 lbs. Is that too much? I obviously don't want to break the mast to get the motor out.
After we got the motor out and the plug in the water gradually drained from the well all right. The speed difference wasn't all that obvious, but I'm not a racer, and my sails are 40 years old anyway. And the safety issue is on my mind as well - while I'm close to shore the motor sure helps avoiding dangerous situations, and further away from shore the water gets rough and I'm not happy walking around with a 60 lb weight in my arms in the cockpit!

As for the winching of the working jib - you agree the tracks I'm using on the cabin roof are in a good positon for the jib, right? I guess I could use the winches on the doghouse if I need more power - the big winches on the coamings are too low to go to from the roof.

I'm lucky to have the PO, my colleague and you guys for advice.

[Bill]

. . . but I'd rather not have that whole assembly in the cockpit. . . . you agree the tracks I'm using on the cabin roof are in a good positon for the jib, right?

The davit knocks down into a very small package that can fit in a cockpit locker or even under a bunk. That's why Gene got it. Scott Galloway (#330) extols the virtues of the davit. Give him a hail at scottg[at]solopublications (dot) com for more information.

The jib track really should be on the deck for efficient sail control. The usual placement for a deck sweeping jib is opposite the forward window in the cabin and out at an increasing angle as the track goes aft. The Genoa track starts behind the aftermost shroud chainplate and runs aft to the first quarter or so of the cockpit. Where you place the car & block depend on the size of the Genoa being flown -- 120% closer to the bow, the 160% closer to the stern. To get an idea of placement, check the posts & photos on the subject. For example, http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=283 where there are photos of track placement.

[eric (deceased)]

swamping the lazarette was and is a commonplace occurrance---not to be to much of a concern----it will not affect the seaworthiness unless it begins to flood the bildge.have that structural bulkhead on the cockpit side water tight.a small hand held bilge pump or cut-off plasic water bottle will get that last bit of water out.I put the plug in place during the crossings----but when the out board was used ----as the stern sat down on a wave the lazarrete did flood---the major concern was swampimg the motor----its best to have more than one outboard----they need only be 4-5 hp----or you can have a larger one-for those motoring into wind conditions----as starcrest had a 10 hp merc-----what a pain----it was replaced by a more easier to man handle 5 hp mariner---this went to the achillies as well :)

[Robert Lemasters]

Eric, when I restored my Commander, one of the things that was replaced was the old lazarette drain. There was water in the lazarette all of the time sloshing about. I fiberglassed in a larger replacement drain, fabricated from PVC pipe, that emptys out much faster without clogging. The Pearson 26 that I part own has the same problem, water in engine well that drains too slowly or not at all. Seems to be a common Pearson design problem on a lot of thier boats over the years.

[Stephan]

Yesterday I went out again, first by myself and the sailing was so much fun - nice steady breeze so I got a pretty constant 6 knots, even with the motor dragging. By myself I just can't be bothered to lift the motor out of the well.
Of course I got more and more water in there, and the gas tank started floating around and falling over, so I eventually took that out from the lazarette and put it on the cockpit floor.
One of the coaming boards finally broke in two about halfway and I will have to maybe put some stainless steel plates (or bronze) along the crack to put them together again.
A friend of mine called and I returned to harbor to pick him up, banged the boat against the seawall a little (seawall got scratched), then out again, and now it really started blowing. I never had the rail in the water before, and boy, was that fun (and a bit scary, but only afterwards...) We were surprised to look down into the water from so far above. Heeling seemed sometimes well over 45 degrees, but I guess subjectively this always seems more extreme than it really was. Anyway I was busy enough (and we had plenty spray) to not get the good camera out, which in hindsight is a pity, of course. But there always is a next time.
I thought to recheck the weather channel and after we heard the 'small craft advisory', we decided to head back. Everything in the cabin was a shambles, the spare motor had fallen off the bunk onto the cabin floor, boxes etc lying all over. What an adventure! Next time before I go out I have to tied down things below.

[bill@ariel231]

Stephan

if the coaming is cracked and glue alone won't do the job, you may have better luck with a dutchman repair (or if they are really bad. call ebb.. his old coamings are available).

sounds like the sail was fun. did you try throwing in a reef on the main?

cheers,
bill

[Stephan]

I should have reefed indeed. I even have that fancy double reefing system, but we did decide to return instead. Once we turned around onto a broad reach the heel diminished a little and we were feeling easier. Inside the Chicago breakwater it got calm enough that we considered going back out, but then we thought it wiser to let it be (it was getting late anyway).

[Stephan]

I think ebb's coamings won't fit my commander. I'd guess them to be short by a foot or two. Anyway, shipping to Chicago is likely to be more expensive that attempting a repair. Did anybody get brand new ones made? What price range are we talking here? $100-$200? For teak or mahagony?

I have no photo of mine here now, might take one tonight. Before they broke completely I actually liked that they were cracked, made them more flexible and comfortable to lean against :)

[bill@ariel231]

you are right, the commander & ariel coamings are different lengths. My portside coaming split lengthwise (along the fastners) a couple years ago. I've since patched it. If the split is with the grain it's an easy fix.

[Mike Goodwin]

You will probably need a 1x12x how ever long your coaming is. I'm guessing 10'.
In teak , @ $13 per bd ft , that would be $130 each .
It may be more than $13 per bd ft up to $18 for a premium teak 12" plank .

[Stephan]

Thanks Mike for the estimate. That's pretty hefty indeed. I guess I'll repair them first and replace them when I'm flush with $ (never)
So you say the repair is easy? How so? Somebody recommended a month or two ago that he would (or did) put metal plates (maybe 2 on each side) to strengthen the boards.

[mbd]

My portside coaming split lengthwise (along the fastners) a couple years ago. I've since patched it. If the split is with the grain it's an easy fix.Ditto Stephan's request for pointers. Mine is cracked as well, and I also have some rot starting at the foremost end below where it attaches to the cabin trunk. Being generally inept in these matters, I'd love to hear pointers on how best to repair it. Pics would be especially nice...

BTW Stephan, I'm green with envy - what I wouldn't give to be able to get out on the water these days!

[SkipperJer]

Stephan,
As a former mid-Westerner who only got into sailing after moving to the Chesapeake in 1997 I can tell you that leaving the motor in the well while you're sailing alone is a very good idea. Options are a wonderful thing. Never give one up. It doesn't slow you down that much and can help you avoid difficult moments.

Also keep your radio on. You'll be amazed at how much more you'll know about what's going on around you. On the Chesapeake the Coast Guard announces radical weather changes on channel 16.

And practice anchoring. I daysailed for three years without ever using the anchor. Then when I needed it it took me 15 minutes to untangle things and figure out how to do it. I wouldn't drive a car without brakes but it never occured to me to make sure I knew how to bring the boat to a real stop.

All that said, it just keeps getting better the more you learn so keep going out there.

[Stephan]

I was envious of all those guys in California, mbd. i thought I have it bad here, with a 5 month season - tops. I guess it can be worse...

[Stephan]

Good idea with the anchor. I got three, but I'm sure it's worse than one since the rodes are doubtlessly entangled with each other. I didn't even take them out of the locker since I bought 'das boot'. I'll try it next time, thanks for the hint!

[Stephan]

Perfect conditions! Sadly, the window of opportunity for pleasant sailing is very small in Chicago. I already had to book my winter storage for 2006/2007... Better not to think about it.

[epiphany]

***GREAT*** pic!

[ebb]

Keep all windows of opportunity open wide. :D
Nice boat. What is it? A Pearson?

[frank durant]

Ebb...taken fron a previous thread from Stephan..."Frank,

you must have seen my boat ("Das Boot", dark blue, a little beaten up) and my neighbor (pale yellow, a bit further out). I haven't spotted any other Commanders in Chicago"..I saw his boat a week back while at a convention in Chicago

[ebb]

Right, my aging eyes saw the winch base as the end of the cabin, and that black whatever there as a third window. I believe that Commanders have a mysterious way of looking different in different perspectives - much more than the Ariel. The Commander is a real easy sleek=looking boat to look at. I always get a charge when a picture appears!

[Stephan]

I'm happy to see how much you guys like pictures - I'm giving you one of 'Das Boot' in daylight in my harbor. I keep getting people commenting how pretty she is in spite of my attempts to ding her...

Ebb, the dark thing is the portion of the coaming in front of the winches, of course. I guess my plastic winch bases did fool you...

[Stephan]

Well,

(melancholy alert)

It seems like I started sailing my commander just yesterday, but in fact it's been 4 months and the season in Chicago is drawing to a close already. I envy all you guys who live in milder climates and can sail all year round.

I'll have to sail or motor my boat to a marina about 45 miles north of Chicago and keep her there for the next 6 months. You heard me right. Having a boat in Chicago for one year means 5.5 months of sailing, and 6.5 months of storage on the hard. I can only hope that the weather will hold for the next two weeks and give me some nice last trips and a decent sail to my storage place, but I'm cutting it close actually, many boats have already gone into storage here. If the wind blows from the north on my big trip I'll be in for some awful ride.

And then I'll have to make everything ready for the first frost, which might well arrive before November. Don't want the bilge pump to explode, or the portapotty :eek: . I'll store the good outboard in a heated place, but the spare outboard will maybe stay on the boat (to save the storage fee) and I have to prepare it to survive 0 degrees Fahrenheit.

So, guys, count yourselves lucky who are in nicer locations. Every winter I seriously consider relocating to somewhere warmer, and one day I will!

Greetings, Stephan

[Faith]

Ahoy Stephen,
If you're hauling out at Larson's tell the folks there that the Fauls and Faith miss them (but not the Chicago winter!) My family and I made that September or October (and occasionally November) sail every year for 30 years - once or twice in the snow! Lake Michigan is the greatest sailing ground there is, if only for 5 months a year.
Have a good winter!
Sean

Commander #239 "Faith"
Berkeley, CA (Formerly Chicago, IL)

[Stephan]

Hi Sean,

great to hear from you. I read about your haul to SF even before I bought my Commander last March. Your journal had no small part in exciting me about our beautiful boats. I'm glad to see you here because I'm sure many people wondered what happened to you after your journey.

I sailed my boat up to Winthrop Harbor three weeks ago, on the very day the harbor in Chicago closed. I was lucky with the weather being fine, since then it has gotten nasty very quickly.

I'm happy you say Lake Michigan is great sailing, but I envy all of you in the SF Bay area now until May.

So, what's up with you there? Are you living on "Faith"? Are you still sailing her around a lot in the bay? Did you get in touch with some of the many forum members around there?

Happy Sailing!

Stephan

[Stephan]

End of season here in Chicago.......:(

[Stephan]

I have to tell you guys with a heavy heart that I'm now deprived of my Commander. I sold it to a group of guys here in Chicago that will hopefully join into this forum next season.
The Commander must be the perfect day sailer - I would never have sold it if I wanted to day sail or weekend sail only. For living aboard my 'Ariel 35' is a little more convenient.
#274 will live on in good hands I'm sure. I'll stay around with my 'Ariel' unless you kick me out...

[ebb]

Sad but happy!
All the best,
and a thousand happy miles in your A-35!
:cool:

[Commander 274]

Stephan et al.,

I am already here! I have gained a wealth of knowledge by reading these postings and look forward to many seasons of sailing aboard DAS BOOT.

Michael

[Commander 274]

Hello All,

While I wouldn't call myself active on this forum, I do read new posts daily to try to absorb as much knowledge as possible on these fantastic boats. Since Stephan is posting pictures of his super sized Ariel, I figured I would post a picture of the old and new owner(s) as a good way to further transition myself onto this forum.

I managed to get a couple buddies of mine from college to pool some funds and buy this boat. While I am the only one with significant experience sailing, my sailing is limited to racing smaller dinghies. So both teaching my friends and learning the ropes of a larger boat will be a challenge.

You can see that the boat has been renamed "Old Glory" (Regarding placement of the name... the wind caught a hold of our decal and decided to place it higher on the transom than we wished. We didn't want to mess with it, so we just decided to go with what Mother Nature intended)

I don't know if it is possible to re-name a thread, but it might be worthwhile to keep all postings related to this wonderful boat in the same place.

Thanks for all of your help so far. I hope to be able to contribute to the knowledge base that is contained here soon enough.

Michael

[Chance]

I had the pleasure of meeting Old Glory's former steward and captain, Stephan. I also was priviledged to have been on the water in your Commander when I was in search of one myself. For other reasons, I elected to purchase "Ceili" (hull #256) out of Falmouth, Maine and bring her down to NC where I'm doing work on her now.
Congratulations on your selection to one of the finest sailing vessels ever made!
Keep us posted on your sailing and any work you do with her. Photos strongly encouraged!

[Commander 274]

quick question, need a quick answer. I did a search but did not find any. So I just thought I would clog up my own thread.

I am working towards making some new coamings. As stated earlier in this thread the coamings on 274 are beyond the point of restoration. I had a tough time getting them off yesterday... it was brutal.

What are the dimensions of the coamings on the Commander? (Basically, what amount of wood do I need to order and what size?)

Unfortunately, my boat winters an hour and a half away from me, so access is limited and I forgot my notes in the cabin.

Thanks.

Michael

[Commander 147]

Michael

You probably don't need the answer any longer but I just read your post for the first time today. I recently replaced the coamings on C147 and I had some issues finding the materials. The old coamings were 13" wide and 10'-4" long. There were 1" thick. If you are a woodworker you probably know that to end up with 1" thickness you need to buy 5/4 material. So I went looking for 5/4 mahogany 14" wide and 11' long but could not find it here in central Florida. What I finally found was 5/4 Sapelli and I had to buy a couple boards that were 15" wide by 14' long to get what I needed. It cost me $496.00 for the boards but the added material is being used to replace all of the wood around the campanionway. In addition I made new handrails out of some of it.

Hope this helps.

[Commander 274]

I haven't been the most active participant of this message board, but I would rank myself as one of the most active readers. My admiration of your craftsmanship and my boring desk job are to credit for my daily reading habit. I would like to thank all of you for providing a respite from crunching numbers. Unfortunately, life has taken me away from Chicago and I have sold Old Glory. The new owners are another group of guys, similar to my group of friends 3 years ago. If they are anything like us, I contend that Old Glory sees the most beer consumption of any Commander on the high seas. We made some improvements to the boat (coamings, motor, etc) and I hope they continue the trend.
I'll be in Chapel Hill, NC... so if anybody is passing through the Outer Banks, let me know. I'll still be reading!

Michael

p.s. when I was launching OG for the new owners, I ran into a no-name Ariel. I didn't want to climb into the cockpit to get her number. But I figured I would post a picture to aid in tracking these great boats as they move around the world. This boat was at Skyway Yachtworks on the south side of Chicago.


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