Just for comparison - Ariel / Commander

[kyle williams]

I seem to be collecting lots of images of Commanders as I search for - but ultimately am putting off till next fall - my new-to-me Commander. I run the collection in slideshow mode on my computer. Refreshing to watch!

This one was helpful to me comparing the lines of these two lovely ladies!

Kyle

p.s. if anyone has a clearer image of Commander's sailplan, I can edit this image.

[epiphany]

Neat, Kyle! Good idea...

But don't you know the old salts' saying that goes:

"Never put off a boat puchase 'til tomorrow, if you can go ahead and get it today..."?

:D

[kyle williams]

Even old salt Ben Franklin might agree that two boats are more than any social worker needs. Let's unload this scow, eh? KW needs burlier as well as classier transport on Lake Michigan.

[epiphany]

Kyle - You should post that one over at the Trailer Sailor classifieds - lots of folks there might want that boat. She looks fast and fun! I tried selling it for you in their chat room tonight. :D

[Theis]

That looks like an MC. You are largely right about two boats being one more than is needed. I launched my MC this summer for the first time in several years, and only once got out to sail it. Was always on the Ariel. But then, for pre season and post season sailing, the scow is sort of fun - but not necessarily easy.

[kyle williams]

True. The MC isn't a relaxing boat. It is a very active, crouching, hiking and holding your tounge right to make the most of the wind. I can't find the impressive picture of the guy water skiing behind it, but the boat can plane and so it can flat scream across the water. The MC (http://www.melges.com/mcscows.html) has a huge following and a very active, nationally recognized fleet here on Spring Lake (http://www.springlakeyachtclub.org ) A great boat for someone who enjoys lots of tweaking for maximum performance and specifically enjoys racing. I personally find that a little tedious... except the screaming across the lake part. I came into the boat for free, so "better than a sharp stick in the eye" applies. For getting out on the water - no complaints, but it just isn't really my cup of tea. Nice thing is that it holds its value and resale is no problemo. Look for it to go away this spring and a Commander getting my name on it.

[Theis]

I am not in concurrence with your comments about the MC. I go out in it when there is steady ,very light wind - wind that too light for the Ariel. It is also great for pre and post season sailing (April, May and November). As for the heavy wind stuff, I used to enjoy it, but now that I know no one would come out to give me a hand should I dump, I've given up that thrill.

[Gravey]

Probably none of my buisiness, but I was just wondering if you had a particular Commander in mind, and why you would wait until fall of '06 to buy it. I keep my Ariel on White Lake, just a few miles north of you. Hope to see you out there.

[commanderpete]

You can compare the Ariel to the Commander using this calculator

http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

The Commander is clearly the better boat.

Numbers don't lie :-)

[ebb]

C L E A R L Y better!

Your Commander is longer by a foot
has a longer waterline, wider beam
and heavier displacement by 400lbs.

Not only that but you have more sail
area, a better capsize ratio and better
points on motion comfort.

Dunno what the pounds to inch ratio is
But you got us Ariels by 12 whatjermacallits.
Awesome!

[joe]

You can compare the Ariel to the Commander using this calculator

http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

The Commander is clearly the better boat.

Numbers don't lie :-)

Better, I guess if one wants all cockpit:)
I prefer the, dare I say, "Expansive" cabin of my lovely Ariel

[Stephan]

There's a mistake here somewhere?
I thought the hull of the Commander and Ariel are exactly identical? That they were made form the identical mould? Has somebody entered the wrong values into the database for either boat?

[ebb]

well...
another boat must have been entered into Carl's Calculator (post #11) for the Commander.
Head to head, Commander would be the faster boat, doncherthink?
Lighter, more sail, less windage...
{Later note: Was reminded this last Sunday, 1/21/07, that officially Commander is but 20# lighter than Ariel - and that sail area, 311ft2 is exactly the same. Years ago A/C's raced in the same fleet here on the Bay with the same PHRF, and Commanders were thought to have the edge. After some discussion about which was faster around the bouys, all agreed that it was the skipper rather than the boat that got the trophy.}

Pounds to inch 'ratio':
Don't know how you'd use this to compare boats.
It's how many pouinds to sink a boat one inch.

Everything else being equal except displacement, how many pounds would it take to sink a Commander one inch compared to an Ariel?:confused:


In this regard, does anybody know how much extra weight it does take to sink either one of our A/C's one inch? Be good to know!!!!

[ebb]

Twenty pounds official weight difference between the boats is hard to understand as there is obviously much more weight in the trunk cabin and furniture in the Ariel.

The obvious difference between the two boats is that officially there is 200 more pounds of ballast in the Commander.

Obviously the Ariel 'top' weight was designed into the Commander bottom.

I don't know if that 200# is in the cast ballast keel, or elsewhere. There is therefore more weight above the waterline in the Ariel.
In the 25kts we had on the Oakland Estuary last Sunday my money would be on Commander, because they could stand up better to the wind.

Wouldn't you think the boat in these conditions would give a consistant edge to ANY skipper?

[commanderpete]

I think the figures for displacement and ballast are something of a mystery. Is displacement empty weight or half stores? Outboard vs. inboard model? Lead pigs or none?

I think most Travelifts have a scale on them. Have to remember to ask the guy.

There is a definite difference between the owners. Commander owners tend to be more tanned and fit, from enjoying the fresh air, but walk stooped over.

[Bill]

I think the figures for displacement and ballast are something of a mystery. Is displacement empty weight or half stores? Outboard vs. inboard model? Lead pigs or none?

It seems to me we've had this discussion before. According to Bill Shaw, the "original" displacement for the boats was based on an empty weight but around 1965 or so, the standard went to 50% of fuel, food and crew. [Or was it the other way around?] Anyway, that's why early and late ad flyers have different displacement figures.

As for the 200 pounds, any Ariel or Commander with an outboard setup got the 200 pounds of lead in the bilge to compensate for the Atomic-4 that was missing. I believe this was simply a racing accomodation so that the boats could complete equally. By now, of course, most racers have sold the lead pigs . . . :)

For an all up weight without crew or fuel (but with a lot of mods) check Geoff's Aussie thread. Figure is in Kilos . . .;)

[Ed Ekers]

Pete says -

“There is a definite difference between the owners. Commander owners tend to be more tanned and fit, from enjoying the fresh air, but walk stooped over.”

I understand and agree with the first part. I guess us Ariel owners are a little thick in the head. Stooped over??? It can’t be that hard to sail a Commander, is it?? …..ed

[commanderpete]

Not hard to sail, but you have less headroom below.

I've gotten used to it